Let's start with Spain. Generally speaking, in Spain being shy is not an option. It is simply not allowed. From the moment you start to speak, you will be expected to do so. Any shyness whatsoever will be "ironed out" of you by the constant repetition of this phrase: "What's the matter? Did the cat ate your tongue?" I would probably be quiet and reserved had this not been the case. Most people think of me as being very outgoing and confident with people, and it's true: I can hold my own in any type of conversation. What they don't realise is that this doesn't come naturally to me, it is a skill that I had to learn because I had no other choice.
Being reserved, while not quite so frowned upon, it's not very common at all. Except for a part of Spain called Galicia - where being reserved is the norm. There's even a name for it: retranca. Basically a Galician person never lets on on what they're really thinking, and it is not because they're shy, it is because they don't want to tell you. As if life was a constant game of poker. The owner of the clothes chain ZARA is Galician, and according to the "grapevine" until 1999 no photograph of him had ever been published; "he has only granted interviews to three journalists ever" (source: Bloomberg). Another well-known Galician was dictator Franco. I have read that he used to drive his cabinet ministers up the wall with his retranca. Even Hitler found him so hard to deal with that after their meeting in Hendaye to negotiate agreements on Spain entering the war on the side of the Axis, Hitler remarked: "I rather have teeth pulled out than go through that again". Hitler was well-known for his "cleverness in adapting himself to the people he dealt with, his extraordinary tenacity for discussion and his endless capacity for argument." * Well, looks like all that wasn't enough to overcome Franco's retranca.
My experience with the Italians and the French I have met is that their views on shyness and reserve are very similar to the Spanish. Not shy, not reserved (though I'm sure that there are also regional variations on this as well). The Portuguese I have met are not shy, but are reserved though perhaps not quite in the "determined" way of the Galicians.
The Finns are very shy though not necessarily reserved. Unlike the English, they look upon their shyness as a sort of handicap and wish they weren't shy. They even make jokes about their shyness:
"How do you know if a Finn is an extrovert?
Because he looks down at both his feet."
The English are both shy and reserved. Coming from a country where this was not the norm, at first I really struggled to understand their mentality. Bear in mind that at the time I was living in a very small village in the West Country. Then I read "Pride and Prejudice". (This was before the BBC did the famous series with Colin Firth, so I have no idea how on earth I came across the book. I had never heard of Jane Austen until I came over, but she was literally a "sanity saver". ) Suddenly everything made sense: these people were still interacting as if they were in the 1700s. Over a year later I moved to London. Londoners aren't quite as shy and reserved as the people in the West Country, but are not far off. Except for Cockneys that is. Cockneys are the complete opposite of the English stereotype: they are loud and jolly and not shy or reserved at all. They talk a lot and very fast. Think of the differences between Eliza Doolittle and Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady. It is a pretty accurate portrait of both types.
I have met some other European nationalities but not enough of them to report on their general views. The varied attitudes makes me wonder where the differences originated from. There is always a story behind as to why people have passed those traditions for generations...
* (http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/v1/2004b/InstaurationLordenManstein.htm )
Very interesting, Kara. I hadn't thought about how a trait like this can be "learned" away. I would imagine that would be difficult.
ReplyDeleteI had a somewhat simplistic view that other nationalities that were loud or boisterous had more to do with similar genetic make-up than with learned cultural behaviors.
It took me a long time to realise that it was a "learned" trait. I used to believe that I was naturally open and outgoing but I couldn't work out why I found events with a lot of people so exhausting. When I looked into it deeper I found that I am actually an introvert. It puzzled me. How had I become this person who comes across as so confident in social situations if I was an introvert? (Once I went for a job for a position in Logistics and the interviewer offered me a job in sales on the spot. I declined the offer, the thought of being in sales horrified me) When I "re-traced" what had happened in my childhood and in my culture I could see how it happened: I was open because I hadn't been allowed to have boundaries, I was outgoing because I hadn't been allowed to be otherwise. These processes start when people are children. I would imagine it would be quite difficult to make someone "outgoing" later on in life.
DeleteI learned the trait to be outgoing as well. Although, growing up in an Indian household in the US - it was definitely frowned upon to be outgoing and voice your opinion. I somehow learned to be outgoing in school and now that I look back on it after reading this - a means to survive my family in the only other environment I was in at the time (school). As at that time being extroverted and opinionated was valued. I only started to realise that I am too an introvert. I feel exhausted after social situations and if we have something planned for two nights in row I become exhausted.
DeleteNow, when I am just am myself - introverted - I have run into feedback at work (when I work in the Netherlands and Flemish Belgium) that being introverted was not valued. I actually received some performance marks low because of this even if I completed projects/tasks efficiently.
Thank you for sharing this information; I have learned a lot from the post as well as the comments below. xxoo
Thank you for the feedback and adding the views from the Netherlands and Belgium to the whole picture. I've been on holiday in Holland twice for a week and never to Belgium but I'm not very familiar with their culture; it was interesting to learn their views on this too.
DeleteI'm sorry to hear that they gave you low marks because of your introversion. That's really unfair.
xxoo
In the work setting, the Dutch in some ways expect a really good discussion / argument. Many Dutch people I have met are extroverted and will argue on all points even in social bar discussions. It can make for lively discussions and at the same time be exhausting since some topics I might not be interested in. My colleagues at work didn't like the fact that I was reserved. The funny thing is - is that I wasn't quiet. I spoke my opinion on something and often it was brushed off but also I would say I agree with someone if they had expressed my view (as to not make the meeting longer).
DeleteIt was unfortunate about the performance marks however, the company I worked for in the Netherlands was a narcissistic organisation - and actually the name of my blog comes from working there. I was originally going to write about my experiences there with narcissism and decided to write about recovery. If I could, I would have changed the name :). xxoo
Very interesting T. What you describe about the Dutch sounds similar to Spanish attitudes. Narcissism in organisations is another interesting topic to explore. I remember Robyn Skinner saying that companies "took on" the personality of the person who was in charge of the company. In Bad Company is a brilliant title for what you were dealing with; I didn't know it was not possible to change the title. What would you call the blog if you could change it? xxoo
DeleteI did think also the Spanish views on being introvert were similar to the dutch. I felt quite uncomfortable at times.
DeleteThe concept of leadership behaviours does start at the top usually. At some point I would like to do a summary post of my experiences in this job (it was a medium sized company - so everyone knew everyone).
I think I can change the name but not the url on wordpress. I don't know what I would name so I just left it b/c bad company refers to the company of family and friends :).
Really great post; as made me think of the Indian culture and American culture differences and how those two environments growing up in my parents house clashed so greatly and adding more confusion. xxoo
Thanks for writing this, Kara. Thinking of introversion and extroversion as cultural traits is fascinating, and something I had not considered before. I guess I knew that the English were reserved, except for Cockneys. (I think of Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear making fun of American rap music and reality TV, for example in his bit "Quaint My Ride," where instead of "pimping" up a car, he puts in an easy chair and a tea cozy--lol, hilarious.) Americans also have the perception that the southern Europeans, e.g. Spanish, Italian, and Greek, are assertive and outgoing, just as you said. And, that Germans and French are not so much reserved as they are arrogant. Does this also fit?
ReplyDeleteIt's also interesting that you mentioned having to learn to be outgoing. My partner Jim is also naturally introverted and was extremely awkward and antisocial as a teen. In his early 20s, after getting a degree in engineering (an introvert hotbed!), he discovered sales and taught himself how to be outgoing so he could become a good salesperson. He is still shy, but it usually only shows when he's in social situations with people he doesn't know very well, and even then I think I'm the only one who can see it. So like you, he learned to overcome his natural reservedness. I have done some of that, but wish I were better at it.
Also, would like to say that I love Galicean music. I will think about it differently now after reading your description. :-)
Thanks again for a very interesting post.
Love,
Kitty
You're welcome Kitty. Jeremy Clarkson is a very good example of an Englishman who is not reserved ;) And I agree with your point about the French and the Germans. They do have a touch of arrogance that other Europeans don't have. It's interesting that the Finns are very similar to the Germans in that they are a very efficient people, however they don't have that sense of superiority because of it like the Germans seem to have. Come to think of it, the English can be quite arrogant too, though I think in their case this comes from having been an empire for so long.
DeleteI like Galician music too. Love the sound of the instruments they use. Did you know that there is a Galician Language?
Love,
Kara xx
No, I did not know the Galicians had their own language. It makes sense though being that they've been isolated from the rest of Spain, from what I understand, that they would have their own separate culture. I think it's amazing how much the Galician music sounds Celtic. Wonder what that connection is??
DeleteNow, it's funny that you say Jeremy Clarkson is not reserved. I think that HE thinks he is reserved, and compared to hosts of American shows, I find him somewhat reserved as well (although not in the same way as Hugh Grant, no). And I would say he is a bit arrogant, too, but more in a funny way than an irritating way. Very few Brits I've met are arrogant. Jim's boss is a transplanted Brit and he is one of the kindest, warmest, sweetest people I've ever met.
What you say about the Finns makes me chuckle. In northern Minnesota, where I grew up, there were a lot of Finnish people, some only first- or second-generation immigrants who still spoke the language, cooked the food, had saunas in their basements, etc. They were about as far from arrogant as you could get, and made good fun of themselves. (Although I had never heard the joke you told above--lol!) Most were salt-of-the-earth, working class people who made their living in the taconite mines. It was not until I was an adult that I learned what an advance, high-tech country Finland is. So your description of the Finns also fits what I know. :-)
The Galicians are descendants of a Celtic tribe, hence the connection. Apparently the Galician language has a lot of words of celtic origin too.
DeleteI see what you mean about Jeremy Clarkson, over here he says a lot of politically incorrect things so he stands out more because the press are always making a big noise about it. I can imagine that compared to American hosts he would look reserved. I haven't seen the "Quaint My Ride" Top Gear programme, it sounds really hilarious. I'll have to check if I can catch it on you tube.
The Brit arrogance is very dependant on region, do you know where Jim's boss is from in the UK?
"saunas in their basements", that's just so Finnish! No Finnish house is without a sauna. Did you know that the Finnish army was the only one that didn't suffer with lice in WW2 because they had sauna tents? :D
Are you a fan of Top Gear? We watch it on BBC-America. I can't remember what season they did the "quaint my ride" bit, but it was at least a couple of years ago. I don't know if it's worth looking up. I had no idea Jeremy Clarkson was so politically incorrect. I guess it makes sense, though, as he does seem to say what's on his mind. I will watch that show with new curiosity now. (I get a bit tired of it, but it's one of Jim's faves.)
DeleteI don't know where Nigel is from, sorry. He's definitely not Cockney, though. My guess is probably the London area.
I did not know about the lice in WW2! That is awesome! Too funny!
I'm not a great fan of Top Gear but I have watched the odd programme here and there. The one where they had a car racing a dog sled to the North Pole was really funny too. DH is not that bothered about Top Gear, he's not that much into cars. I imagine Jim enjoys the engineering side of it.
DeleteWell, if you ever find out where Nigel is from, let me know. It'd be interesting to see if my theory is right. Forgot to say that people from Yorkshire are very friendly and kind. I wondered if that's where he was from.
I'll ask Jim where Nigel is from. BTW, I told Jim what you said about Jeremy Clarkson, and he replied, "Nigel says he's an asshole." I suppose that's true, huh? :-)
DeleteHahaha It's probably about right, people and the press over here are always complaining about his comments being offensive.
DeleteFascinating. I had no idea there was such a deep cultural basis.
ReplyDeleteYes, I find it fascinating too. Watching "Pride and Prejudice" after knowing about Narcissism is a real eye opener. So many of this attitudes we have to deal with have been passed on over generations. :P
DeleteI wonder why it's not similarly possible to characterize Americans? The Brits definitely have the cultural traits you describe--wry, understated, often snooty in a passive-aggressive way, stoic, loves to humble brag. I didn't know about the "retranca' ; I like that idea (although Franco not so much :-)) The idea of playing cards close to the vest, in countries where dictatorship has been inflicted, it seems more 'normal.' Very interesting post, and you have such an interesting background.
DeleteHi CS, do you think it's because Americans are a blend of so many nationalities? Maybe also because it's such a huge country?
DeleteI think Franco must have been really horrid, to be the only man ever to beat Hitler at his own game of manipulating people....
Another culture that is very "retranca" is the Japanese. From what I've heard, they're extremely difficult to do business with. FYI...
DeleteYears ago, Jim and I took some lessons from a Greek, and he sort of summed up the homogeneity of American culture by saying, "It's a casual country." I think this is pretty accurate. Even more to the point, we are a classless country, not in terms of taste but in terms of socioeconomic strata. Oh, they exist, of course, but there isn't a clearly delineated class structure the way there is (or was) in many European countries. I think this is just because we are younger, and don't have monarchical roots. But this is just my theory.
And yes, I agree CS, that retranca seems normal in a dictatorship. But how fascinating that Franco beat Hitler at his own game. He must have been a real son-of-a-bitch! :-)
Yes, the Japanese, of course! I think your theory is not far off, Kitty. Do you think that "class" has been superseded by money in modern times? England is the only European country I know of, where people are still judged (from a class point of view) by the way they speak. (Again as in "My Fair Lady")
DeleteActually the retranca was there before Franco. He was that way because he was from Galicia. I imagine though, that the retranca was a product of being a region so open to the sea. That they had to assess what were the intentions of the people who showed up at their shores.
I once visited the place where Franco is buried and it's really, really creepy. It had a 1930s Nazi Germany feel too it. I have a feeling that a lot of the stuff he got up to has been hushed; because of the "pact of silence" "instituted" to smooth the country's transition to democracy after he died.
Don't you guys think that people are judged in the US in subtle ways by how they speak? I think there may be a prejudice against people with deep Southern accents. There's still an equation of southern twang with redneck, or good 'ole boy. Maybe that's not a bad thing, since slavery and Jim Crow took a long long time to recede there; but still, when I here, say, Senator Lindsay Graham talk, I feel like his IQ is 20 points lower than a Northerner. Unless said Northerner has a strong Jersey accent, like Chris Christie. Then he sounds like Mafia. I think we still have lots of subtle codings of class in America, even though our national doctrine is that we observe no "titles" or class distinctions (it's in our Constitution!).
DeleteYes, CS, absolutely. Here's another example. I have a friend from Boston and she said she worked for years to lose her accent because it was considered lower class.This all changed after JFK got elected (she's in her mid 70s now), but in Boston itself this is still largely the case. Southern, Mafia, all true! I have the same built-in prejudices, I'm sorry to say. It's weird that the midwest is "flyover" country, yet that region has what's considered the norm American accent. (Or is it California? That would fit, too, I guess.)
DeleteAnd yes, Kara, I do think that money has superseded class, at least here in the US. We definitely do have many subtle codings of class here, and of course class is a big deal even though people pretend it's not. (I was raised by non-practicing Lutherans to believe that Catholics were "lower class" than we were.) It's just that here, in most circles anyway, money is the great equalizer. You can buy your way into an upper class strata, whereas in older, more structured cultures, all the money in the world won't change how people classify you...I think. Again, just a theory.
Good point CS, that also happens over here (aside from the class prejudice) there is also the same IQ assumption with people who speak with an Essex accent. There's definitely a lot of subtle conditioning when it comes to accents and language.
DeleteOne very good example of this is the experience of journalist Giles Coren, who was at a fashion show and asked a woman if she knew where the toilets were and she replied: "I don't know what that is darling, but the loos are over there." :P
Kitty, your theory makes sense.
Hi guys, the thing is, I'm not so sure that money equals class in the US. Think about Donald Trump, or the Real Housewives. They may be rich, but they're not classy. I ask my students when we talk about class how many of them think the Donald is "classy." Not one raises her hand. So the ways that people use their money, and how they manage their profiles, also affect perceptions of class, as well as how they show off their money (or not). It's such a fascinating topic. I know in the UK that the permutations of speech code so deeply--North End Boston, Hackensack NJ (sounds like generic cab driver), even upper Michigan area (think "Fargo" accents, or Palinese)--all signify class. Midwestern accents vary too. Northern are flat, like when Palin says "Alaaaaaska." Southern midwest have Tennessee twang. Maybe california is the "norm," I don't know. Most of the young people I interact with have no idea how much their speech tics are giving them away.
DeleteCS, all good points that fit and make sense. It's hard to point at, and yet I do believe that class is seen differently in the US than in Europe. Maybe there's some books out there about it. If I find any, I'll let you know.
ReplyDeleteXX00
Looks like the chaps at the BBC have been reading our discussion ;) look what article I found on their website:
Delete"Class calculator: a US view of the class system"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22025328