Saying that, the concept of the "Amygdala Hijack" is one that I did manage to find "pre-blogging", though not before I had experience it, and I really wished I had known what it was before it happened to me because it was very distressing. When my sister started going out with BIL2 and I started to realise that he was like a timesx10 worse version of BIL1, my whole body went into emergency mode. It was like I had lots of loud air raid sirens inside my head that wouldn't stop. All the cells in my body were jumping up and down and I felt like my body just wanted to run. And all of this was happening without me having a say in the matter at all. It was like the body had a will of its own which was commanded by somebody other than me and there was not talking it out of it. This went on for some time; in the end, I decided to use the energy to de-clutter the house. You might as well, hey... (The thought of going for a run also crossed my mind, but I didn't have anybody to go with and the park near my house joins an isolated forest. Probably not the best place to go running on your own.)
About a month later I was in the library and I saw a book called "Anxiety, Phobias and Panic" by R. Z. Peurifoy. I thought it might be helpful with the sleeping issue so I borrowed it, and what do you know? In the first lesson of the book there is a clear explanation of what was happening to me:
"When you experience something fearful or unpleasant, a memory of this is stored in the amygdala. When you encounter this object or situation again, an immediate fear response is triggered. This fear response causes you to experience anxiety and triggers the fight or flight response."
It was like my brain had taken one look at future BIL2 and remembered the 10 years of grief we'd had with BIL1 and said: "Not this again. ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm getting you out of here."
The book goes on to say:
"The amygdala is designed to overreact to possible signs of danger. For example, a person living where there are poisonous snakes quickly learn to associate snakes with danger. The amygdala will then trigger the fight or flight response whenever anything that might be a snake is perceived. After all, if you are walking in the woods, it is better to mistake a stick for a snake than a snake for a stick. This all occurs very quickly at a unconscious level. This circuitry allows you to react very quickly to danger without the need to consciously think about what is occurring. Unfortunately events and objects that pose no threat can become associated with danger and trigger a fear response when you encounter them. "
I'm not sure that I agree with the "overreact" claim. If, like other researchers have claimed "“...the architecture of the brain gives the amygdala a privileged position as the emotional sentinel, able to hijack the brain.” or, in other words, the amygdala is our internal "body guard" surely the reaction is there for a reason. I strongly believe that if the alarm is there, is there for a reason, I think the brain is pretty good at telling the difference between "a stick and a snake", so you should never, ever, ignore it. To ignore would be tantamount of hearing a fire alarm in the house and turning the sound while ignoring the fire. Sure, I can understand that for people with issues like agoraphobia this might not be the case, but my gut feeling is that the brain tries to protect us when he knows that we are in danger and we don't have the skills to protect ourselves in that situation. Because presumably if we had those skills the brain would not identify the situation as danger in the first place. I have recently experienced this myself. Over the last few years I wasn't able to stop myself from going into a panic every time I heard the phone ring and it might be someone from my FOO. When we changed the phone to one that had no answering machine (so that I didn't have to come home to ominous messages :P), there were days were I could not answer it. Over the last month I have been picking it up more often, mainly because I have been practicing ways of standing up to my mother, and how not to get "embroiled" into "maze" conversations with my brother (another subject worth its own post). Since I feel more able to handle the conversations with them, when the phone rings I don't seem to go into the same mad panic anymore. Now that my brain feels more confident to face whatever phone calls I might get, it doesn't need to sound the alarm. It's like that scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where Indiana Jones has to face a skilful swordsman and you think: Oh no! What's he going to do now? (Watch what happens...)
Well, he doesn't even batter an eyelid, does he? I love the expression of "I really don't have time for this..." in his face as he picks up the gun and shoots the guy. Not that I'm suggesting we shoot narcs to get them out of the way... but you get the idea. It's about finding that figurative gun so that we can deal with whatever comes up.
However, while we pick up the skills to face "danger", we do need some tools to cope with the "flight" mode, because flight mode interferes with the thinking process which is what will eventually help us to find the gun. It's a catch 22: while we are on emergency mode, our brain can't think up any solutions: it's too busy trying to get you out of there to think with clarity. More on that on the next post. 
Hi Kara,
ReplyDeleteWonderful post. This is a great topic. I am very familiar with that scene and have loved it since I first saw the movie in the theater all those years ago.
In a way, this revisits your thoughts about boundaries and feeling as though you have something worthy of protecting. I think guys like Indiana Jones are heros to me because they take for granted that their self is worth protecting. He has both the belief and the capacity to do so. I have had to fight all my life to get to the point of even starting to think that it maybe, might be true for me as well.
In relation to the amygdala hijack, it would take a lot for Indiana Jones to get so flustered that he wouldn't know how to take care of himself. So I'm not sure I agree with the "overreact" claim, either. I think it's more along the lines that if you are taught that you are worthy of protection, you will be much more naturally able to do so and less inclined to go into panic mode. If you are taught that you aren't worthy of protection, then you will fly into a panic whenever you feel yourself in such a situation. The panic comes not from "overreacting," but from the inner conflict between the natural survival instinct and the conditioning that we are somehow not worthy of protection/survival.
Not sure if that fits, just kind of thinking aloud here. But something along those lines. Love the post.
BTW, I have always hated answering the phone. Caller ID was a godsend when it came out. Also, looking forward to more on your brother.
XXOO,
Kitty
"If you are taught that you aren't worthy of protection, then you will fly into a panic whenever you feel yourself in such a situation. The panic comes not from "overreacting," but from the inner conflict between the natural survival instinct and the conditioning that we are somehow not worthy of protection/survival. " YES,YES, YES!!! Brilliant addition to the post Kitty. I think you're so right about this, because I always used to feel terribly guilty when I didn't answer the phone. As if it was a terrible thing to do, when really, answering the phone should be optional. Just because someone is ringing, it doesn't mean we have to answer it, sometimes the time is inconvenient and other times one might be ill and not up to take phone calls. Most people today have mobile phones so if there was a real emergency we could be contacted anyway. - I think phone issues might be worth their own post too ;) -
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for the brilliant feedback.
Love,
Kara xxoo
P.S. I went to an exhibition in January where I saw the actual costume Harrison Ford wore in his role as Indiana Jones. It was fascinating to learn how the costume designers created the whole outfit.
I think what Kitty has said is spot on. I have never felt I had the right to protect myself. I think that is some of my issue with MIL. I felt that defending myself, speaking up for myself, would somehow be rude. And to be completely honest, I feared that if I pissed her off enough, she would manipulate my husband to leave me. I have begun to move away from those feelings (if she's angry, but I've been respectful in boundary laying, that's her problem. And if DH leaves me because of it, well, I don't want a husband who would pick an abusive mother over me.) But, my father had me in such a inferiority position that I never, ever believed I could express my feelings without appearing rude or ungrateful or disrespectful. Something for me to think about.
DeleteAlso, the phone, I think so many narcs use this as a tether for us. A way to keep us "on the line" so to speak and a way for us to prove our love by being available to them. My NM gets very angry when I 'screen' her calls (although for years she didn't have an answering machine and only screened calls). I've often told people (in my recent move towards independence) that I have a phone for MY convenience, not any one else's. I don't answer it during dinner or at night or even if I'm reading a book to my son. Rarely is it an emergency, and if it is, I'll call back. Assuming someone else should drop everything they are doing to answer a call is narcissistic to me. But maybe it's just me ;).
Hi Jess,
DeleteI also felt like defending myself and speaking up for myself was rude. How can defend oneself feel rude? No wonder we have so much to "undo" from our upbringing :P It's so good that you've come to a place where you feel you can stand up for yourself, whatever the consequences. Somehow it doesn't seem to work any other way, and weirdly enough once you make that decision for yourself, people seem to respect you more. If only we'd known that before...
I know what you mean about your father, I don't think I have ever told my father how I feel about anything.
The point about narcs using the phone as a tether is so true. My mother used to leave the most ridiculous "guilt-tripping" messages in our answering machine, like it was such a drama that we weren't there to answer the phone. She really hated it when I got rid of the answering machine. It's like they like to keep "tags" on our time. Of course assuming that someone should drop everything they're doing to answer they phone is narcissistic. It's also their way of saying "what you're doing is not important, I am". Very narcissistic. Weird how we've been brought up to think that's normal.
Yes, phone issues seem to be huge with us ACONs, and I echo the YES!!! about how hard it is to believe we're worth protecting. (Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while; NM's behavior was OK until she once again felt independent enough to revert to type.)
DeleteHi Cassandra, good to hear from you. I'm sorry to hear it's been difficult with your NM. xx
DeleteYes! What Kitty said makes so much sense! The internal debate kicks in and there isn't room for anything else like making an actual decision or plan a course of action. Your brain is screaming protect yourself and training is throwing out "Why?" "It's never helped before." "Nothing's changed." "You're still worthless, so what's the point?" "Dying isn't a bad option..." Another reason to ditch the negative tape. I would never have considered that.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing that scene. It is one of my all-time favorites because he does take the most simple, obvious course of action.
Sharing this link on Monday. Wish I'd known about this, too.
Thank you Judy, you make a good point about the negative tape "throwing out" our natural instincts. Changing the "recorded" tape isn't easy, but we're getting there :) We need to learn to start following "the most simple, obvious course of action". Makes sense, doesn't it? xx
DeleteYes, the "why? It's never helped before" is another piece to this puzzle, a learned helplessness which is yet another outcome of growing up without a real sense of being valued and worthy. An excellent point.
DeleteThis is a very thought provoking post. I have always had a phobia of the phone, because of my narc parents. If calls come at a certain time of early morning, or late at night, I go into panic mode because I'm sure it's "death" news (which for me will mean uber-scapegoating); but even when I know I "have" to talk with a FOO member now my pulse races. Sometimes before I talk with my father I have to open up my iPhoto on the computer so I can look at pictures I love, that calm me down, while "chatting" with him. So the full-body reaction at contact coming from them is something we apparently share. I also believe my amygdala. Six years ago, when I went out to visit my FOO, I went to dinner with my NF, his NW, and my NM, and one sister. My mother and sister brought their yapping little dogs alone, as security blankets. I hadn't been out there in two years; hadn't seen them in two years; instead of concentrating on me, on talking with me, my mother directed everyone's attention to her dog, which barked through the entire meal. I felt, in my bones, the following sentence: "this woman is a monster." I just felt it, in my amygdala. I felt that she was evil. That she'd done this as a way to shut me out, to act as if I hadn't flown across country to visit. I'd just had a book published a few months earlier, which she did not say one word about. Meanwhile, I'd read her self-published self-help book (took me two hours, not a hard read) a few weeks earlier, and had immediately called her to tell her how much I loved it (I lied). She sounded brittle during that phone call. I asked her if she'd gotten the copy of mine that I'd sent her earlier. She said she had, but had "not had time to get to it yet." This was a month before my visit. So I go out, we're all at dinner, and she says not ONE word about my book. Her dog barks and everybody acts like its so cute. And my amygdala told me, "this woman is a monster." It was right. I would get waves of dread coming over me sometimes when I'd look at her cold blue eyes, squinting at me dubiously.
ReplyDeleteNow we don't talk; but of course I still talk with my father, who is identified by a special ring tone so I can 'psych-up' before I answer. My blood pressure goes way up, heart races, and I just steel myself. Because each time we talk he says "I'd love to see you, if you have any plans to come out." The man who will not visit me. And I have to listen to the same goddam stories. My entire body hates this. You knew your BIL#2 was evil. You could feel it. We need to trust our intuitions on these things; I agree that there's a reason we have an amygdala, and it aint just to flee lions or snakes! xx
I think this panic mode is one of the reasons I went NC. I just couldn't stand how awful that felt. I think at times I actually become ill (cold, flu--this seems to be how my body reacts to prolonged exposure to this stuff) from anxiety about it. The NC has proven to be so peaceful, and I dread the thought of ever giving that up.
DeleteThat dinner sounds beyond horrible, CS. I can relate to how you felt. Was it an epiphany moment for you when that internal message came through, I wonder? Do you think it was the beginning of the NC for you?
re the phone. Yes, a great topic. I too have always had a great deal of shame about hating to answer the phone. It just seems so...antisocial. And I have always attributed my phone shyness to my father, who absolutely HATED it when I was on the phone as a kid. But I see now it goes deeper than that.
Hi Kitty,
DeleteThat moment at that dinner, when I heard my own voice say that to me, was a turning point. The remainder of my visit, I couldn't bear to be in physical proximate to her. She made my skin crawl. But I doubted my feelings then, thought I was just "over-reacting" (Hah!). And this was BEFORE she plagiarized me! She really is a special kind of monster, the covert passive aggressive abuser.
I don't feel shame anymore when I don't answer the phone, although I used to. I don't think anyone has the automatic right to enter my home (which is what a phone call does); I think it's my right to decide whether or not to talk. But I had to work on this!
CS, I know exactly what you mean about that moment when you "saw" your NM for all she is. It's like all other sounds inside and outside your brain have stopped, like time has stopped too, as if it was a scene in a film that you had "paused" and you were able to step out of it and really look at what was happening without any distractions or excuses. Once you've had one of those moments it's impossible to go back. What would be the point anyway? I've had a few of those moments. One of them was when I was staying in the village where my father is from and we had been dropped off to my aunt's hotel by my parents so that we could see most of my father's relatives who work and live there. DH and I were sitting in a private dining room when my cousin's wife came in (whom we also hadn't seen in a few years) and sat down. She said hello, picked up a gossip magazine and started to read it as if we weren't even in the room. I heard my inner voice saying: "Kara, why on earth are you even here?"
DeleteMy cousin's wife was sending the message that, really, I'm not worth her time. Same with your mother taking the yapping dog with her. By directing the attention to the dog and away from you she's also sending a message: that the dog is more worthy of attention than you are. What my cousin's wife did was very rude but for your mother to do this, it's BEYOND appalling. How on earth can your sisters expect you to put up with that sort of treatment? There's no way on earth that anyone with a shred of dignity would put up with that.
I think Alice Miller wrote a book about how the body is affected by these things. "The Body Never Lies". I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.
Loved your point about nobody having an "automatic right" to enter your home. Adding that to my Notes to Self :)
Kitty,
Being NC or LC, having any sort of buffer zone from people who are noxious to us makes such a big difference. Like you say, it's so peaceful.
My father too really HATED it when I was on the phone as a teenager, but I think it was because he's tight. He was forever remind us he was paying for the call.
xxoo
When I was in college, my mother had two schnauzers. I'd drive for two hours in my dangerous crap car to go visit her, and I'd sit there watching her groom and coo over those dogs. I never wondered "why am I even here" because I lacked the tools to even formulate the question then. But I did feel hurt and resentful at the attention those dogs were getting after I'd driven all that way to see her. If I didn't drive to visit her, she'd be "hurt" that I'd "neglected" her. Then I'd do the drive, despite paper deadlines and exams, and be virtually ignored. Horrible.
DeleteMy mother did this with her dogs, too. A 4 hr. drive to visit and she'd focus on the dogs, the barking, jumping, filthy, untrained dogs (which I've written about). I always had a sense she did it to make me envious, as if she was saying, "If you were as loyal as these dogs, I'd be this nice to you, too." Of course, she also did it with my cousins, throwing in my face her close relationships with them. Both were fantasies, which I knew even then. All she accomplished was making my skin crawl, and wanting to be even further away from her--which I eventually did w/the NC.
DeleteCS, I would love to hear more about this dinner experience epiphany moment. I find these moments fascinating, and they always help me understand--and even recognize--my own better. I hope you consider writing a post on it!
XXOO Kitty
I'll think about how I might formulate the experience into a post worth anyone's time, Kitty. It was one of those almost out-of-body experiences, like that moment in the movie The Devil's Advocate, when Charlize Theron's character looks at the wives of her husband's colleagues and sees their faces morph into demon faces. It's a momentary epiphanic realization, and it hits on a bodily level.
DeleteThat dog stories are interesting; I just got an e-mail from a friend back home who said her mom is coming back from Arizona (spends winter in Arizona) and is excited to see her daughter's dogs. I thought this is weird b/c wouldn't a mother be excited to see her daughter after a six month break (well, non NMs). This is the second time she had made such a comment. And I know her mother because we spend the holidays with this family. And I stopped going the past few years because something didn't feel right. At that time I couldn't place the feelings as Kara's mention and it could be an automatic reaction to sensing something was not right. Great comments - learning so much from your stories. xxoo Hugs
DeleteThe deflection of affection away from her daughter onto the dogs is a telling one. It's an act of defensive passive-aggression, in my view. You felt that something wasn't right--like Kara with her cousin's wife--you just feel it. As when that cousin's wife said hello then just read the paper--coming to visit and 'can't wait to see the dogs', such behavior isn't right.
DeleteThere is something intrinsically wrong in putting first an object or an animal over a person. We all feel it when it is done to us or when we see it done to other people or in films. Like what you mentioned in your post about Enlightened (I've watched the first series, will post about it soon) , about the mother being more concerned about the birds when her daughter comes home from treatment. It's just heartbreaking. And I'm not saying that we should not give animals and other things attention, (there is a time and a place for everything), it's the way people like that make you feel like those things are what really matters to them and you're , well, just not that important. I think the brain picks up on that and, like T Reddy said, you will feel like something is not right, even if you can't put your finger on it, and you won't want to go. That was my experience too with a family who were friends with my husband. On the surface they were very kind and would have us over for dinner if we visited the town where they live. After a while I just couldn't face going there. It just felt so painful, but I couldn't explain why. All I knew is that I just didn't want to go. xxoo
DeleteYeah, paper-reading is a doozie. When I was a teenager, my father would sit at the breakfast table reading the paper. One day I got news that a friend had drowned. I was crying; my father looked annoyed, took his paper, and walked with it into another room. Not ONE word of comfort for me. It was unbelievable. Thinking back on it now, I still cannot believe it. WHO does that? If I told him about it now he'd have no memory of it, and he'd deny it, saying it "doesn't sound like something I'd do." His offhanded cruelties and cruel neglect were such a deeply ingrained part of the experience of living in our house that it was just the norm. And my mother, later when I was in college, never missed a chance to fuss over her dogs while ignoring me. I realize now it was a performance of something, but of what, who knows? Trying to make me jealous of her dogs? It was ridiculous. But I used to sit there, and take it, feeling like shit. SO many thousands of ways both my parents used to treat me like shit on their shoes. Jesus.
DeleteI'm sorry about your friend CS, that's very sad. I think that's the thing, we grow up with this behaviour and we think it's the norm, and that it's ok to be treated like that. My father did a similar thing once. A guy I knew who had had a car crash and was in intensive care. A friend had called to tell me that he had died and we were discussing arrangements to attend the funeral. My father was complaining about me being on the phone, shouting from the living room (the phone was in the hallway) and when I told him that the guy had died, he just said: "Good riddance!" in a "I don't care what happened, just get off the phone" tone. (Incidentally, he knew the guy, he was from the same place where my father was born and lived down the road from my grandparents and the whole thing was very sad because he was the son of a widow). Seriously, who says that when they learn of someone's death? No word of comfort either. Come to think of it, he never even asked how the funeral went when we came back. :P
DeleteIt's amazing to me that we all have that "dread" response at the phone. Like CS said, if the phone rang at night or early in the morning, for years I assumed that my sister was dead, or in jail, or in the hospital. Even now, when she calls (well not right now, as we are NC) but when I see her call, I know it's never just to say hi and check up on me. Do you suppose other people have happy reactions to the phone?
ReplyDeleteI also have always loved that scene from Indiana Jones (and Indy too!). I wish I had that level of clear headedness when it came to danger. I mean, he still might get anxious or worried, but he never gets hijacked by his emotions and works through it.
Thanks for writing this post and reminding me of this feeling. It is such an intense, scary feeling and you have helped me just by identifying it (and reassuring me that I am not going crazy). XOXO
You're welcome, Jess. It's hard trying to put the feelings into words. I'm glad it helped. xxoo
DeleteJessie, I don't think we're crazy. I'm discovering that all those symptoms, feelings, reactions, that I thought were my own inability to deal with FOO are in fact shared by fellow ACoNs. Phone phobias seem to be one more to add to our own experiential list. It amazes me that the psychologists who write the books about narc criteria, the ones who determine what goes into the "lists of signs," rarely include the ones that nearly all ACoNs have experienced. If the list were from our viewpoint, it would be different. But we are not alone, and there has to be genuine sanity that we are all having similar reactions to the narc abuse we've been brought up with.
DeleteI don't like the phone either, a serious point of contention between myself and other people who take it personally. I am honest with people now, telling them I don't like the telephone and please don't take it personally which has worked out pretty well.
ReplyDeleteNow that we have answering machines, my life is much calmer and I don't have that horrible startle response reminding me of childhood. I was a hyper-vigilant child protecting my siblings from the unexpected and the telephone triggers a reaction that has everything to do with childhood. Thank goodness I can "talk myself down" but still, even at my age, my automatic reaction precedes reason. So the alarm system is good, in so much as WE are reasonable people. I write that because:
I live with and love family members with mental illnesses. The Amygdala Hijack bypasses their cognitive reasoning which leads to dysfunctional (even abusive) behavior towards scapegoated others. So mental illness can interfere with 'trusting one's gut' when people who are not grounded in reality---simply reacting to FEAR without REASONING (or open to questioning their reasoning!).
I have encountered this many times online with people who are triggered by 'me' and refuse to engage their critical thinking skills. They insist, absolutely and without refutation, that their GUT is right. The truth is that "I" am a proxy for someone in their past who abused, terrified or even tortured them.
When people aren't troubled by pathological processes and have a pretty good guidance system in their gut, they'll question themselves as to whether or not their perceptions are accurate. when that is missing (such as narcissist's "distorted perceptions"), the Amygdala Hijack can be self-destructive. Anyway, that has been my experience both on and offline.
Love,
CZ
Hi CZ,
DeleteThanks so much for contributing experiences on other aspects of the Amygdala Hijack. Most of the articles I found online focus on that (fighting) side of the hijack, rather than the (fleeing) side of it, but I didn't add them to the post because I only have experience on the "fleeing side of it".
Love,
Kara xx
CZ, boy do i identify with what you write above. Do I ever, having been the mistaken target of some pretty aggressive amygdala hijacks myself. There have been times in my life when I felt like little more than a walking trigger for others' projections. Today I did a pre-emptive amygdala hijack by calling my father, off our schedule, for a ten minute Skype. AFter ten minutes, he went into his story loop, and then as soon as he said " we'll have to find a way to get you out here for my 85th bday party," I said "nice talking with you Dad, got to go back to grading exams. love you." And I hung up. I politely but firmly wrapped up the chat, and signed off. There are techniques I'm trying too practice, a la Kara, to control my feelings in these situations. They help! xx
ReplyDeleteI love the idea of a "pre-emptive amygdala hijack". You handled it beautifully. I look forward to hear how you got on with the carpenter ;) xx
DeleteThe general contractor sent a different carpenter this morning. Guess the other guy's too much of a twat (!) to show up and face me. Fine by me!
DeleteThey always are. Well, at least the work will get done quicker. xx
DeleteGreat post, Kara! I look at how we all have this wiring to protect ourselves in danger and then I become in awe of how our's undergoes rewiring from our families. If this is the basic wiring for survival why is it in some situations we have not been able to protect ourselves? Kitty brings up a good point about belief and capacity and seeing our own worth in order to protect ourselves. If the basic wiring is there then what is left to develop is belief and capacity. Well chosen words take away our belief that we are worth it and therefore worth protecting and then the capacity is not developed. If Indiana Jones hadn't had the capacity he would not be able to see through the distraction of the sword manoeuvres. Our families through distractions like the sword man at us all the time so we could never learn to listen to the responses of the wiring. We are so focused on the distraction (swords in front of us) we don't look at what is right in front of us or within us (in Indian Jones' case - the gun). Really great clip!
ReplyDeleteI feel that is what my mother did growing up. She put distractions like this in front of me that I learned to fight her attacks using the tools I saw she put before me instead of using my own. I often played fire with fire. And well, that would never work. If I was in Indiana Jones' place and the sword guy was my mother. I would have been going around asking the crowd for a sword so I could go up against her - instead of looking at what I was capable of right in front of me.
xxoo TR
Great explanation of the analogy of the sword scene, that's exactly what I saw in it too. That Ns create huge distractions so that you constantly look in the wrong direction and miss what the real issue is.
DeleteYou know, your point about feeling like you had to play fire with fire is very interesting too. Narcs make you feel as if you have to play by "their rules". The first time I saw the film, that was my thought too, that he HAD to find a sword and fight the man with a sword. (Duh, says who?) We've been conditioned to feel like we have to play by their rules, but what do they do, they keep changing the rules. I can imagine that if Indiana Jones had found a sword to fight the man on his terms, the man would have pulled a dagger (that he would have hidden on his side) and stabbed Indiana when he was distracted. :P
xxoo
Showed this clip to DH as he loves Indiana Jones. He asked, how is this related to N? I explained - spoke to him in his language. ;) xxoo
DeleteGreat comment thread. Nothing to add right now, but really enjoyed reading them and related to all of it.
ReplyDeleteXX00
This was an awesome post, along with the comments.
ReplyDeleteI also experience the phone-panic most of you wrote about, and I agree that it is in connection with our toolkit of fighting back or negating stuff, and also the self-worth concept. I still panic when the phone rings. Not because I think someone is dead, but because I know that picking up meaning giving a green light to heavy verbal covert abuse or gaslighting.
My FOO has stated regularly that they think I have a phone so that they can reach me whenever they want to. They even offered to buy me a phone so that they could call me.
I don't agree with the 'overreact' part, as many have also said before. It is rather an internal protection system that alerts us to snakes. It is the rattlesnake analogy for me. Hissing and rattling induces a panic attack in all living being that live around rattlesnakes. And for a very good reason. You don't flee when you hear rattle - you die. This is the same for us with the phone ringing. The phone rings - you pick it up - you die (at least your soul does, for a while anyway).
Thank you Scatha. I LOVE your analogy of the phone and the rattlesnake. It is so true. I also feel like a little bit of my soul dies after I speak to my FOO on the phone. Brilliant comment; thanks for adding it to the discussion. xx
DeleteAmazing analogy, the rattlesnake. You just know you're going to lose a little piece of your soul "chatting" with these manipulative, selfish people. And meanwhile, your gut is churning, blood pressure going up as you go into emergency mode physically, even while trying to just sound like you're having a casual "chat." Ugh
DeleteNo kidding, blood pressure does go up. Last time I spoke to my mother I asked DH to measure my blood pressure afterwards, and it was 130. Normally it's around 109. So much for salt being blamed for high blood pressure ;)
DeleteHere's another of my FARMER stories, LOL: When my siblings and I were teenagers, we worked in sugar beet fields. The creepy thing is that our farm was a breeding ground for rattlesnakes so we had to be on the alert, at all times, in the event something moved beneath the beet leaves. If we heard a rattle (because the snake was poised to strike), an amygdala hijacking saved us a trip to the hospital. We got pretty good with the hoe, making sure our tool was sharp before we went to work each day! However, there were other snakes we didn't want to kill because they ate mice and crawly things, benefiting the farm. Taking deep breaths after seeing the 'flash' of moving snake skin gave our brains time to process the "amygdala hijack". I hadn't ever applied this experience to the topic you've brought up but it clarifies quite a few things for me and the different ways we managed our fear.
ReplyDeleteI'd also like to add that when someone is submersed in a "hijacking" and reacting as if "I" were a rattlesnake, it's my job to diffuse the energy until they recover their sense of perspective and we can talk rationally. At that point, I'm part of the situation. I can make it worse, not better. Reasoning with someone who is convinced their Feelings are Facts, only increases their fear (and anger!!!)
I've had a steep learning curve after marrying a guy who suffered debilitating amygdala hijacks (rage attacks) when he would insist "I" was his abusive stepmother. His childhood was right up there with one of the worst physically abusive toddlerhoods you can imagine. At first, I reacted to his sudden rages by reasoning with him. Then I learned to leave the situation because he couldn't stop himself for several hours after which he'd suffer regret. On a less-dangerous level, we all experience a hijacking to some degree; however, the executive functioning of our brain allows us to process the amygdala's "warning" by using our intelligence to think through our reaction (feelings). This is how I understand it anyway.
As you know, the executive functioning of my nephew's brain isn't as developed (looking for the right word here....). He used to have powerful hijacks but has learned to stop. Breath. Name the feeling. Consider what he wants to do. Act consciously and with intent. REASON. A process like that works for me, too and when I'm not over-stressed, anxious, worried, etc. everything's fine and good and dandy. It's just a damn telephone. But "I" have had a few melt-downs that could have been managed better had I used the same process.
In better reference to your initial post, I accept my amygdala warnings as a way to connect to my past, when vigilance was protective. I ask myself, what does this 'fear' represent? What am I feeling and why? The "hijack" can be a useful tool for self-exploration AND reclamation. It can be a way to connect BIG feelings to something in our past. I am definitely not perfect at managing hijacks which is why I eliminate unnecessary anxiety and stress whenever possible.
I hope this better explains why this topic is important to me, in living a healthier and saner life. I don't mean to undermine the value of an internal warning system that is immediate and protective. Thank God it's there! But some people are not able to reason and question their perceptions before reacting, and my task (because I am devoted and love them) is not taking it personally when they see me as Satan's handmaiden. I wish they could do that for me, too because there are times when I'm flooded with anxiety from a 'trigger' and need their understanding, restraint and empathy. *sigh*
Love,
CZ
Thanks again CZ, for bringing this perspective into it. I loved your farm story. There are snakes in Spain but they aren't poisonous, except for adders that is, and you hardly ever see them, so to hear your story of how you dealt with rattle snakes on a farm is fascinating. I understood that you were not undermining the importance of the hijack as a warning system but just showing us how it affects other people. Thanks for sharing this, it is important to know what to do should we ever be on the receiving end of someone else's hijack. Also that there are different types of hijacks such as the difference between your ex's and your nephew's and the one we get.
DeleteHugs,
Kara
I grew up with rattle snakes too; nasty little buggers but you do learn to work around them.
DeleteI so appreciate you starting this conversation - for me, sort of ;)- and it has helped a lot. The thing I'm finding, as I've worked through this this last week, is that AHs are sort of a security blanket for me. I'm finding a hard time letting it go or wanting to reason through it. I have some sort of cognitive dissonance that if I don't have this strong reaction to MIL (the source of my recent AHs) than I somehow was "wrong" in feeling fearful of her. That she isn't the dangerous person I feel she is. I think, partly, it's because this has been the argument many people have put up for MIL: why are you scared of her? she's not that bad, they say. So, my brain says, that if I'm no longer as fearful of her, than my perceptions of her as abusive must be wrong. Rationally, I can believe that, she is still dangerous, I'm just learning to manage her, which is reducing my fear, but I'm having a hard time convincing my heart of that. I hope I'm making sense, as these thoughts are difficult to sort out in my head. But, sometimes, it seems I'm clinging to these AHs as "proof" that I'm not crazy and these narcs really are something to be wary of.
Makes a lot of sense Jess. We cling to the AH as "proof" because we like to have "tangible" evidence and sometimes that's the only "proof" we have available. Particularly when they're very good at "looking the part" :P
DeleteWhat Jessie wrote is valuable information about our 'cognitive dissonance' post AH. Will we continue to justify our reaction, or can we admit we were a bit reactionary? This is what I'm experiencing right now after a melt-down with my sister when I acted like a....hummm....what's the right word here? O yea. Chump. A wimpy chump.
DeleteYou'd think she'd been coming after me with a branding iron or something! After getting away from her sadistic grin when I broke down crying, I felt so much 'shame' for having reacted like that. For myself anyway, the "unhealthy" AH is like an out-of-body experience. Thank God I'm not plagued with those experiences very often but when I am, whoah.
Maybe because I have (and do) go through things like this, I have more empathy and patience with my nephew and my sister who has bipolar???? The important thing is that they don't mean to hurt anyone, unlike those rattlesnakes we were talking about.
This has been a great great discussion and topic, Kara. It's led me towards deeper understanding of myself and others...thank you soooooooo very much.
I think my reaction (panic attack) in the moment was out of proportion to the immediate stimulus (announcement MIL was coming into town). That is what scared me. I shouldn't be unable to breathe just because she is coming to visit. That being said, MIL is dangerous to me. She is covertly abusive and controlling and manipulative. She does pose a real threat to me, my marriage, and my kids and I think being continually confronted with her has culminated in these feelings of panic, of being out of control. I think my reaction is appropriate, while looking at the big picture, but inappropriate if you only look at the specific incident. Which, yes, does produce feelings of shame in me for being weak. I want to be able to control these panic attacks so that I can respond with all my wits about me but I think I need to be wary that she is dangerous.
DeleteIt's all very complicated for me right now.
CZ, I have been at times in the past, the one to "break down' in tears, while my NF or ES have been cruel and cold and snide. They seem so "in control," and I've just felt overwhelming needs to cry at such moments. I was embarrassed and humiliated at those times, as if I'd lost the game of "chicken" re: control. Now I realize I was the one being human at those times. Any human would've cried.
DeleteMy sister (Lord help me if she finds this thread!) does not have 'feelings' when she's ambushing people and telling them off. She's cold as ice, saying terrible things she "conveniently" forgets later. That way, she can maintain the angelic position without any twinge of guilt. I always look like a wimp ass or a chump OR as the latest version goes, a sneaky and conniving liar robbing my siblings of their inheritance by helping my parents as much as I do. Criminantlies. I worked on myself for years to be where I am with my parents today.
DeleteWhat this thread suggests is that my automatic reaction to my sister's confrontation was emotionally charged and out of context to the actual danger. I didn't "fight or flight". My reaction was to 'freeze', like I did as a kid. It was a surreal experience which might be a tip-off to the amygdala hijack. When the original FOO is 'recreated' such as all of us getting together during my father's surgery, regression is inevitable. She was always a bully even when we were children.
I am researching amygdala hijacks this week, to see if I'm applying the information correctly. It seems to fit because my reaction was disproportional to the situation and I felt like a helpless child. I was the one standing at the top of the stairs while she was chastising me for Gosh Sakes. I coulda pushed her ass to the bottom of the stairs. It never even occurred to me til now. ha!
I was pretty good at handling my X but this was a throw-back to FOO dynamics. We haven't lived near one another since 1970 and now we're neighbors. We have not spoken since the staircase episode.
"I" feel shamed but she is the one who should be ashamed of her behavior. I'm sure she isn't, though. And so the story goes and so we have No Contact as the best of our terrible options.
Yes of course, there's also the "freeze" option. I do that a lot too. I wonder why all the articles I checked didn't mention it.
DeleteI think the main issue with people like your sister (or mine for that matter, she is very similar to what you describe) is that no matter which way you try to be reasonable, or to accommodate them, they always seem to put one in an impossible position. I can't see that there was much else you could have done CZ.
Hugs,
Kara
The people who should feel ashamed rarely do; instead, they go cold on the attack, project their garbage onto us, then stand back and wait to see the damage they do. This is my NM's MO as well. Cold as ice, then "forgets" what she's said. IN a way, I think we feel ashamed FOR them, as if we cannot believe people can actually behave this way. There is a feeling when being bullied that somehow you're seeing people at their worst, and there is some humiliation I think to even witnessing it, even when you're their target. Your sister was rotten to you during a time of family emergency. You were there for you parents because you cared about them. But your sister is jealous of you, jealous of your independence of mind. It's extremely threatening to her, that much is clear. I think part of her is also pissed off that your parents still love and at least to some extent accept you, despite your "defection" from the religious fold. It threatens her own sense of moral superiority. Master projectors always externalize their own malevolence, and put it off on those they feel threatened by. But it aint easy carrying that shame dump. That, I think, is why we melt down. We feel poisoned by it. At least, I always did, when my NP or sisters behaved abominably.
DeleteThanks Kara for an excellent post. Really helped me a lot. Can't figure out how to give a high five on the computer; smacking the monitor just seems like a bad idea. (((((Kara)))) Cyber hugs.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome Ruth. I'm really glad it helped you. Hugs to you too ((((Ruth))))
DeleteMOrning Dolce Kara, today I"ll probably Skype with my father, and I'm going to imagine Scatha's rattlesnake rattling as I boot up the program, just so I can be aware and have my long pole snake grabber ready. Trying to prepare in advance for what rattles us is such an important thing. Your brother has something up his sleeve--that's fine. YOu're expecting it; you're independent of your FOO; there's nothing he can do TO you. Picture yourself grabbing the head of the snake with a long pole before you get on the phone. xxxxx
ReplyDeleteThanks CS, I had my "tool kit" ready and I passed with flying colours ;) xxxx
DeleteBoy did you ever. Any repercussions or more contact from him after that last weird conversation? You changed your pattern by being reticent and not biting the baits. I wonder how he's responded?
DeleteNothing. Not of a peep out of my parents either. Going into uncharted waters now. I'll keep you posted. xx
DeleteI'll bet they'll "test" you. If you keep consistent they'll realize that something significant has changed. Which it has! xx
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