Blogger TR (from In Bad Company) uses an expression about Ns that I think it expresses very well what they do. She says that "they don't do feelings, they do feelers - they put a feeler out to see what the reception will be" and we (ACoNs) end up offering "exactly what they wanted without them having to ask." This is very much my experience too. However, I'm quickly learning how NOT to "give them what they want without having to ask". I'm paying particular attention to how one of my friends (who is not an ACoN) handles people who do this and I'm taking notes. Here is how she handled El Zorro recently:
Last week she got a text from him saying that he would be visiting the town where she lives, with a friend -his armour bearer, I presume ;)- (and btw, no mention of the "instant girlfriend" at all). Just that. Not: "I'm coming over with so-and-so and we'd like to meet up with you, etc, etc" but a simple "notification" that he's coming over.
So my friend replied: "That's nice. I hope you both have a great time". Simply.Brilliant. Don't you think? ;)
Brilliant! It still surprises me how well this works, no matter how many times I see it put into action. I like TR's expression of "putting out feelers." Spot on.
ReplyDeleteThanks Judy. It always surprises me too how my friend always handles these people so smoothly and without any drama and, like you said, it works so well every time.
DeleteI think TR's expression is such a brilliant term too, it's so descriptive of what they do. ;)
Brilliant. Just.
ReplyDeletePlaying 'thick as a plank.' Love that.
ReplyDeleteYep, me too. Haven't completely mastered it, but I'm working on it ;)
DeleteThat is brilliant how your friend knew there was no question or consideration in that text immediately and deflected the attempt nicely. That was very well done. xx
ReplyDeleteThis is an awesome post. I hadn't heard TR say that before and it is an amazing way to describe what Ns do. I can almost visualize their "feelers" coming out of them (neon green and octopus like) when they enter a room.
ReplyDeleteYou know that both DH and I are ACoNs. I often go back and forth comparing our experiences and wondering if his experience was at the depth of mine. If maybe I'm projecting some of my relationship with my NM on him and his mom.
But, as I read this, he plays "mind reader" just as much as the rest of us. Because isn't that the case? These people are so entitled and arrogant the EXPECT us to just mind read. And when we don't, they find fault in us for it. It's such an extreme from of attention seeking, in my opinion.
And DH's mother pulls this game. In the last few weeks, we were at a party (I know you know this story, but bear with the few first details so my comment wll make more sense to others) and MIL struck up a conversation, near me but not with me and DH, to "announce" to him that "I just wanted to let you know we'll be in town the day after Christmas and babysitting the kids for a few days." She didn't offer anything further. This wasn't said in the midst of an ongoing conversation. She sort of "lassoed" him over (I really don't know how she does this, but she can non-verbal pull him to her when she needs him. It's rather amazing.) and just made this statement. DH asked where BIL and SIL were going, but didn't say anything else. DH seemed to think nothing of it, so I brought it up later, saying I heard your mom was going to be in town...and? Again, DH didn't even seem to think anything of it, telling me the story. I said, "and she wants to get together." He said "well, I guess, probably, but she didn't say anything about that." Ah, but see DH, she doesn't HAVE to say anything.
So, two days ago, DH brought up that MIL has now decided to give us her Christmas gifts (note she couldn't bring them to the party ONE week prior, but NOW has to stop by again. This is another story.) Anyway, she told DH that they could meet up (surprise) on the day after Christmas.
And that would be enough to annoy me, but she then, STILL, doesn't bother to make plans. She's needling for an invite over here, but screw that. I have two small children and the house will be a WRECK the day after Christmas. I don't want her, and FIL (and of course BIL and SIL and their kids) over. (BIL and SIL seem to take issue with having us all over to their home, and I'm tired of doing all of the work). It drives me crazy how she drops these little crumbs for DH to "pick up" and follow to what she wants. Anyway, I told him not to worry about it, that if MIL wants to set up plans, he can offer her dinner out, or she can invite us to SIL's house. Simple as that. Shouldn't be an issue. But he's stressing, he (subconsciously) knows what she wants, but alas, there is not much I can do to help him with that.
Anyway, short story long, it seems to be the same thing. This sort of fishing for things without ever having to ask. Maybe it's so they don't owe us anything in return? I mean, we can't "call in favors" they never asked for. Or maybe it's because they get NS from feeling like people are bending over backwards to make them happy? Or that they are so entitled they believe we should just KNOW what they want? Craziness, I tell ya.
I love the analogy of the octopus. Royal Octopuses is what they are. I'm not sure why they do this, and I guess there's different reasons for different Ns. With el Zorro, I suspect that he is "used" to people offering to do things for him (clue: he's very close to his mother, but not at all to his father). With your MiL, my take is that is a form of pride. If she doesn't ask, she doesn't have to face rejection.
DeleteI think you've handled the situation very well too. You've given your DH two available options. He'll have to deal with his own stress - like we've all dealt with ours ;) xx
Thanks Kara. It's hard to watch him struggle. It's hard to see how blatant she is and how "well trained" he is that he often doesn't pick up on it (I'm sure his stress now is that he's "subconsciously" picked up that MIL really wants to come over here and he doesn't want to offend BIL by going over there-BIL would have to deal with his wife not wanting us over there.) But, he's a big boy. I'm sure he can handle it.
DeleteHope I didn't hijack your post. It sort of triggered an "ah-ha" moment and it dawned on me why her little "hints" drive me crazy so much. I'd be a lot less stressed if she just ASKED for things. It's really the fair and adult way to handle things. But then, like you said, that would set her up for rejection, and so she really leaves us "no choice" but to do what she wants. She doesn't have to take no for an answer if she never asks ;).
My MiL did this with DH, he was ready and answered her on cue. Very similar to your MiL - getting attention so that he fulfils her need. It is so automatic. Somehow the programming is there that I would become guilty even though no clear action was stated. That was like a double edge sword, I offered (so I removed their responsibility for considering my feelings) and when I didn't offer I felt the guilt. It is so manipulative and underhanded and extremely subtle that I couldn't 'prove' what they were trying to do until I'm left feeling exhausted and awful at the end of it.
ReplyDeleteI think it is great that you see her cues and her attempts to snag an invite. Even more so you are telling her she needs to take the responsibility of considering your situation and feelings and can't get what she wants through manipulation, she'll have to ask. I'll be curious to hear how she re-groups. It is annoying and I want to pull my hair out for these behaviours. Much support and thoughts being sent your way.
I haven't figured out the purpose in this type of behaviour. I'm learning that the questions you asked, finding the purpose of why they do this behaviour is important to finding the appropriate solutions as well. I've seen this with some N friends too and I'm thinking it is about getting attention and exerting their power over us? xxTR
I agree, and I'd like to add that Ns, generally, don't do anything at all that they can get someone else to do for them. xx
Deleteso true, why do the work when others will? xx
DeleteWow, TR, your first paragraph so clearly describes what happens. Man, it is SO nice to have someone else who sees this stuff. It is so subtle that I often wonder if I'm crazy and seeing things. But I would get that guilty feeling too, when nothing had been asked. (I was just telling Kara I was feeling guilty for not doing something for MIL's 40th anniversary. Why should I feel guilty when no one else is doing anything? But there I am, feeling guilty.)
DeleteI also like how you brought up the "I offered (so I removed their responsibility for considering my feelings)" I think that is a very important part of it. It's getting attention (and having people "care" so much they are willing to do all kinds of things for them, sort of like they are a celebrity or something), feeling important because people are willing to sacrifice and read their minds, removing all responsibility (you offered. You should've have offered if you didn't want to.), and removing any chance of rejection (and any chance you'll really say no to them.) So crazy and manipulative.
Would you (and Kara) mind if I copied your comment for my personal notes? You wrote it so well and clearly described it.
I should say too, that I'm only beginning (like in the past few months) to see the cues. Before, I'd be too angry and anxious around her to fully see what had happened, before it was happening. I just left most interactions feeling ran over and controlled. I used to tell DH that I don't want ALL of the control (because, before, if I tried to say anything, I was accused of being controlling) but that I just wanted SOME say in things. For my voice to be heard. To be included in plans and not have them made FOR me all of the time. I was willing (and happy) to go along with most things, but I needed to be heard too at times.
ReplyDeleteNow, the hardest part is getting DH to see it. It is SO manipulative, I think he often feels these are his own thoughts, instead of implanted manipulations on her part. Luckily, with this one, I was more able to point things out ahead of time. But it's a process.
" I'd like to add that Ns, generally, don't do anything at all that they can get someone else to do for them." ~Kara
ReplyDeletePlease write a post about that. I cannot believe narcissist's level of entitlement to "benefit" themselves from other people's labor. When you stand back from the narcissistic relationship and gird yourself up for the horror, you see how easily manipulable you were. Well perhaps I should say "how easily manipulable "I" was."
Kara, I am much more conscious of emotions than ever before. I noticed how people try to 'snag' those emotions to manipulate me and I never ever realized that was happening. Now I see the exchange taking place WHILE its taking place instead of three days later (give or take 34 years). And I am learning better ways to deal with narcissists than "rejecting" them completely. That makes me feel like a victim, like I can't manage myself (which has been true in many cases, argh!)
Love
CZ
Hi guys, I hope Kara does a post about this too. It's SO true. My NF has been doing this for as long as I can remember--he'd hint about how he'd like a banana and one of the kids was expected to jump up and go get it for him. Or he'd "sip" at his empty glass until someone jumped up to refill it. ET just "outsourced" her aggression at me to my sisters and NF. I Skyped with NF yesterday, and at times when I could "feel" the tug of his unenunciated questions, I just hit "mute" and nodded my head. When he stopped rambling I'd hit the volume again. I think figuring out a way to not hear them even if they're right in front of you is helpful. I always go back to my motto TAKE NO HINTS. Silences where they frown slightly go unqueried. Their sighs are ignored. Their empty glasses sit empty. You stretch, look around, get up to use the bathroom. You get to play as thick as a plank. They've been playing it their entire lives!
DeleteBeing able to "see" how they do this as it's happening, (as opposed to sometime later) is they key. I wrote a post about how they do this when I first started blogging, but I think a re-working on it would be good too. I'll see what I can come up with. xxoo
DeleteDearest Kara, Narcissist Slara...Okay okay...narcissist SLAYER but it didn't rhyme with Kara. I nominated you for this blogger award today if you have time to visit my blog. The post is located here: http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/2013/12/you-can-call-me-rick-or-you-can-call-me.html
ReplyDeleteThe woman who nominated me listed other bloggers I'd never heard of so that made me consider accepting the award and increasing our "circle" of friends perhaps. I've never done one of these award-things so we'll see how it goes.
Happy New Year to you tonight since it's almost 4:30 here and my nephew has fresh bread in the oven. We're eating raclette which I'm sure you know about (had to order my cheese through the mail, ha!). I hope you have a wonderful and delicious evening and I'll see you next year.
Your Friendly Narcissist Slayer,
CZ
Thank you so much CZ. What a way to start the year :) I feel truly honoured. Looking forward to see what new insights and skills we come up with in 2014.
DeleteHugs,
Kara xx
P.S. I wish I could have joined you in eating raclette. I do love raclette ;)
Dear Kara, I piggyback nominated you too, on my latest post. I couldn't think of people CZ hadn't already mentioned! But I'm discovering a few new ones from Phoenix's blog. CZ also nominated me. We gots ta stand together…..
ReplyDeleteThank you CS. The feeling is mutual :) xx
DeleteDamn...I lost my comment due to not being signed into WP. Damn...
ReplyDeleteBut! I agree witht his above. We are just landing pads for Narcissists.
I am so grateful for websites like this who lead the way out of this particular darkness. Narcissism isolates people and in the isolation you feel desperate, depressed and totally alone. ACON's struggle with this for a LIFE TIME< but having these websites tears asunder these curtains that make us feel we are the only ones experiencing these things. We are legion.
Lady Nyo
Thanks LN, I'm so grateful to have met you all too. Reading about others who are having the same struggles, feeling validated, supporting one another, sharing ways to deal with different situations... it all helps and despite how painful it all is, it's way better than it was when I was trying to manage it alone.
DeleteKara xx
I so agree. 6 decades for me, when I was made to feel like I was crazy, stupid, alone, weird, etc...and some of this was by various therapists. Huh.
ReplyDeleteI have grown as a woman from the last few years of reading other websites. It has supplemented therapy and in some cases, it has given the lie to what some therapists have said. yes, recovery...or finding ourselves and understanding that we are NOT alone, and that the issue comes from parental behavior, is more than encouraging. I don't think that I would be alive if it wasn't for the many different websites that led me out of this horrible darkness and pain.
Lady Nyo...xoxox